Claudia talks to lawyer and philosopher Gary Francione about abolition. Gary provides an overview of how ideas related to animals have emerged and changed since the 19th century. This includes the emergence of animal welfare, animal rights, and abolitionism. Throughout the interview Gary asserts that animal welfare and animal rights will not achieve anything until there is a paradigm shift whereby animals are no longer understood as property, food, or things to use.  Date Recorded: 5 October 2023.  Gary Francione is a is a published author and frequent guest on radio and television shows for his theory of animal rights, criticism of animal welfare law and the property status of nonhuman animals. He has degrees in philosophy and clerked for U.S. Justice Sandra Day O’Connor. He is the author of numerous books and articles on animal rights theory and animals and the law. His most recent book is the 2020 publication Why Veganism matters: The Moral Value of Animalsand other titles include The Animal Rights Debate: Abolition or Regulation? (Columbia University Press, 2010) and Animals, Property, and the Law (Temple University Press, 1995). He is also the editor of Critical Perspectives on Animals: Theory, Culture, Science and Law, a series published by Columbia University Press. Gary has been teaching animal rights for more than 25 years and, together with Professor Ana Charlton, started and operated the Rutgers Animal Rights Law Clinic from 1990-2000, making Rutgers the first university in the U.S. to have animal rights law as part of the regular academic curriculum and to award students academic credit, not only for classroom work, but also for work on actual cases involving animal issues.  Featured: Animals, Property, and Law by Gary Francione.Reflections on Tom Regan and the Animal Rights Movement That Once Was by Gary Francione.Are you a vegan or are you an extremist?  by Gary Francione. Send us a messageThe Animal turn is a nominee in the 2024 Women in Podcasting Awards. Vote for The Animal Turn in the Society and Culture Podcasts Category. You can vote between 1 August - 1 October 2024. Vote here: https://womeninpodcasting.net/the-animal-turn/ Women in Podcasting AwardsThe Women in Podcasting Awards is a people's choice awards. Birds of a Feather Talk TogetherA podcast all about birds. Two experts have fun with two beginners - you'll love this :)Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifyA.P.P.L.EAnimals in Politics, Law, and Ethics researches how we live in interspecies societies and polities.Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the Show.The Animal Turn is hosted and produced by Claudia Hirtenfelder and is part of iROAR Network. Find out more on our website.